Brian Singerman: "If SpaceX Didn't Work, Founders Fund Wouldn't Exist"

[00:00] If SpaceX didn't work, Founders Fund would not exist. We bet our careers, essentially, on SpaceX. Venture capital, to me, has put the most money in to the best companies possible at the best price possible. 98% plus of my decision was based on the strength of the founder. Do I believe that they would just crush at what they are doing? Do I believe that they are the best in the world at something novel? When I did get to meet Elon and learn more about SpaceX, it was extremely clear that there was nobody else like him on the planet who could actually pull something like SpaceX off. [00:30] like that in the history of business. [00:32] you. [00:42] Brian Zingerman, welcome to Sorcery. - Thanks, thanks for having me. - Thanks for having us know where no one can ever know about. - No, this is, this is, [00:52] We are in my studio. [00:54] It's a bit of nominative determinism, Singerman. I mean, I don't know about that. I think that was a made-up name from like Ellis Island back like several generations ago. So how do you explain all of your music? Oh, right. There's no other explanation for working music other than having a musical name. It must have come from there. Must have. When did the music... So basically, I was invented at Ellis Island. Yeah, right? I mean... [01:19] Did you walk through them yourself? We were talking about how old I am and I'm not that old Molly. I'm not a hundred and something.

[01:31] We're off to a really good start. So most people know you from Founders Fund. Bit of a legend there. I know, uh... [01:39] So Grace from Vanderbilt... [01:42] She invited me out to one of their conferences that they were doing. I think it was like in the fall or winter or something like that. And she was like, hey. [01:50] Like, would love for you to come. You could interview Bryan Singerman on stage. Are you interested in that? I was like, hell yeah. And then I think turns out I had to be in like some foreign country, you know. You're a woman of the world, Molly. I'm so sorry. But here we are today in your music factory. [02:06] - Music studio, but sure. - So I wanna talk about, I mean, this is like the most crazy time. [02:12] ever and most of the companies that are headlining are ones that you were an early investor in so i want to talk through those from spacex [02:21] Palantir, Anderol, etc. But before we do that, [02:26] I got some amazing questions from Max Lovechin. Oh boy. I don't think you're ready for these. I really am not. Anything that Max is going to bring up I'm really not ready for but I'll do my best. They're very good. I will get him back though. [02:37] I mean, so we're going to get into all the investing stuff, so stay tuned. But to start... [02:44] You ready? I'm ready. [02:46] When and how did you get into tabletop gaming? Oh, that's a great one. I've been in a tabletop gaming forever. I mean, I'm a gamer. That's what I do. That's like drives my investment strategy and drives everything else. Like I am a strategy gamer. I love it. It's what I love. [03:01] I got into...

[03:03] gaming tabletop gaming not even just video gaming like probably like age six seven and i would go to these kind of like local meetups near my house where people were playing [03:13] anything from Monopoly to Acquire to, you know, any of the old games. And I just got really super into it. What are your favorites? [03:20] I mean, I've been competitive, like, [03:24] You know? [03:25] nation competitive, global competitive in a couple of different games. I don't know if I'd call it love, or if I just get kind of obsessed with one of these games at a time. [03:35] Um... [03:36] I was like the Settlers of Catan US champion, but this is in like 1995, 96 before anybody was playing. [03:44] Right before anybody had ever even heard of the game. It was the first year the game came out. I was probably was world top 10 at a game called Ascension. [03:53] And it was definitely top 10 in a game called Terraforming Mars. [03:57] a game called Kalos. [03:59] But, you know, I suck at poker, though. You suck at poker? I do suck at poker. [04:03] How did you pick out each of those games? Like, how did they... How does this all start? I don't know. I think you play one of these, and then you start being like, oh, that's interesting. And then... [04:11] you know, especially once they became [04:14] once they became online or computer versions of these, you could just play them so much, that you could actually get good at them. I don't think you could, back in 1995, it was pretty impossible to get like really, really, really good at something like Settlers. Like, the people who are good now would have [04:29] It's night and day. [04:31] And I would not be able to compete at all right now. But once kind of online gaming took off in a really big way,

[04:40] It was you were you were able to play enough of these things that you got really good much to like my wife's chagrin right? I would play these things [04:48] To get that competitive at these things, you have to play them. 24-7. Not 24-7, but you've got to play them 10 hours a day. You can't have a family. Yeah, right. You have to... Ever since I've had a family, I have not been able to do this. But before then, yeah, it was really fun. [05:04] Have you gotten into chess or go or anything like that? I'm bad at chess. Anything that's got such... I like strategy stuff. Anything where the... [05:12] tactical component is [05:14] equally as important, if not more important than the strategic component, I'm going to be terrible at. Like, I do not like tactics and this and that. I like strategy. So I want to break into the strategy component of this, too, because this does bleed into your investment mindset. [05:31] thesis and like how you're looking at companies, I would believe. So like what, what are the main strategies that you go after? Like what are the competitive forces and like, how do you look at maneuvers? [05:39] Well, I don't look at maneuvers. I look at when I was doing the the venture investing thing, you know 90 [05:45] 8% plus of my decision was based on the strength of the founder. [05:49] like do I have when I have a conversation with that founder do I believe that they would just like [05:55] Crush at what they are doing do I believe that they are the best in the world at something novel? I mean it's still what I'm looking for right now Even though I'm not doing direct investing, but do I think that they are the best in the world at something? Whatever that is and do I think they can leverage that to build a [06:09] one of the world's greatest companies. Let's bring it back to 2007. You were talking with Sean Parker. He told you about Founders Fund. You were running an angel fund at the time. And was it SpaceX that piqued your interest of joining? And like, what was it like back then? It was amazing back then. I mean, yeah, I was running my own fund. I was still at Google. I was going to leave Google, raise another fund, raise a bigger fund, became friends with Sean. And then he said like, hey, why don't you come take a look at what we're doing at Founders

[06:39] So I went there, just kind of hung out, met the guys. I didn't know who the other guys were. I didn't know who Peter was. And I was like, [06:49] started hanging out and that's when they were starting to look at you know that a company ridiculous company called spacex and it was just so unbelievably cool and there was just absolutely no other way that i was going to be able to do that just [06:59] angel investing. [07:01] right and so i'm like oh yeah this is the kind of stuff i want to focus on and so [07:05] Joined Founders Fund in early 08. That's crazy. How did you get to know Sean? I think I met Sean because I was like either helping talk to one of the companies he was involved in. [07:18] And I met him through... [07:20] I believe I met Joe Green first, was his co-founder at Causes, and then I met Sean through Joe. [07:27] everything you know silicon valley networking you never know exactly where it happened but yeah we became friends and there you go that's a good segue because another one of max's questions [07:38] And I don't know if there's like backstory to this question, if there's something deeper to this. [07:43] But if there is, I want to know all about it. Okay. Okay. Silicon Valley is a collection of characters. [07:50] who are the most interesting ones, whether they're in your portfolio or otherwise? I mean, Silicon Valley is a collection of characters. I mean, I think that, [07:58] I don't know who the most interesting ones are. I mean, I think... [08:02] Everybody is. [08:06] - Here, let me tell it like this. I think Silicon Valley is full of a couple of different, there's a lot of sheep.

[08:12] in Silicon Valley kind of [08:14] just going where [08:16] wherever they're supposed to, but there's definitely a lot of people in Silicon Valley who are truly unique and who are truly the best in the world at [08:25] Somebody. [08:26] Right. And I just love that. Like, I love meeting the people who are the best at what they do in a way that I could never do. Right. Like, I feel like, whoa, you know, these are the people. And so. [08:37] Without saying best, I mean, there's a reason why Peter Thiel is the greatest venture capitalist in history. [08:44] right and talk about cast of characters i mean that's one of the things that attracted me to [08:48] Founders Fund, [08:49] to begin with was like each of these guys seemed like [08:54] the best in the world at what they were doing. [08:57] When I did get to meet Elon and learn more about SpaceX, it was extremely clear that there was nobody else like him. [09:05] on the planet. [09:06] who could actually pull something [09:08] like spacex off and so i'm not going to get into like who the [09:14] favorite best but yeah I mean it definitely we can go through specific people and I can try that I know really well and I can try and tell you what they're [09:21] what I think that they are the best in the world at. And whenever I meet somebody [09:25] who I think is the best at what they do, I get really excited. I would love to do that. So one of the questions I usually do revolves around performance and people's like, [09:36] personal networks because I believe that you are an extension of the people that you're closest with and and even through founders fund and that sort of thing the people that you're close with like what did you learn from Peter Thiel what was what it what is he like. I mean like a lot of things but I think the thing that he did best.

[09:54] in terms of venture capital was [09:58] he surrounded himself with other people who, like most people, [10:02] they just can't push back on Peter. They're like too scared to or they're just like, they just don't, right? But when you surround yourself with people who are extremely smart, [10:14] And [10:16] not scared to use their own individual talents. You build something truly great. And I think that's probably one of the things that he and Founders Fund just did best, was hiring very smart people, people who could push back whenever they needed to, and in using their own specific skill set, not like pushing back in a way that's like, oh, let me try and say what I think Peter wants to hear. That doesn't work. [10:39] Right. That'll never work. Like people are too smart to recognize it, to see right through that kind of stuff. Right. But when you're saying something from your perspective that is truly like uniquely you and is a good perspective that that can work. [10:50] So as long as you're not scared. So I think he built up a team full of people who were [10:55] had nothing in common in terms of how we saw the world, [10:58] but [10:59] also were our own and truly our own individual characters who could absolutely [11:06] push back on him such that [11:09] If he didn't like something at first and you're just like, nope, this is actually really good, you're really wrong. [11:13] it would actually get done. So in other words, surrounding yourself with like, [11:17] non-yes men, [11:18] non-people who are just going to do the thing that way, I mean, I think he was just [11:23] he was and is ridiculously good at that. What part of the DNA of the DNA

[11:29] of that culture, like most people are afraid to share what they feel, but [11:34] you're full of a team of high conviction individuals. How did that happen? Like, how do you... [11:41] How do you continue to support that and create that culture of strength? I mean, you have to actually respect the people that you're around and know that they are better than you at some things. I have no ego about this. I'm very good at knowing what I'm good at, and I only play to those strengths. What are you good at? [12:00] Well, when I was doing the venture thing, I was really good at just recognizing if a founder was truly A+. And you get better and better and better at that over time. But I didn't try and say like, oh, I know how to diligence biotech companies or I know how to... [12:12] diligence financials i didn't i didn't read a financial report ever i still don't know how to read financial reports right the one time i ever had to do a spreadsheet my wife had to do it for me right like that's not what i do i stick to what i'm good at and i put skill points this is the whole strategy gamer thing into the thing that i'm really really really good at such that nobody can catch me on that and i think that we kind of all did that you have to have some natural true and this is [12:36] I don't think this is easy for most people, but you do have to have some natural contrarianism. I think most people do just want to fit in and do just want to... [12:45] play the game and be excellent at the game. And I think we excelled at having people who were ridiculously good at their own game and therefore could be naturally contrarian. But like the underlying tone of that is not ego, it's expertise. I think, or not, I wouldn't even call it expertise, I would call it like

[13:02] Respect when you know that somebody is really good at something, letting them do their thing. [13:08] Right? Right? Like when you know somebody else is really good at, like I don't ever do the whole like, oh, [13:14] talk about stuff that I don't know. This is why like even if I'm doing a podcast or a show I stick to [13:19] I'll say like, yeah, I'm not an expert at that. Next question, right? Because I don't care about needing to sound good at everything. [13:26] Right? Like I know what I'm really good at and I kind of focus on that, but I also know what my partners or people around me are really good at. And I really do try and let them be them. A lot of those lessons came from Peter. Um, a lot of that is natural, but yeah, I think that's the, one of the reasons why Founders Fund was as successful as it was and is right, is because you are able to like, [13:50] really let people excel at what they're good at and not have them just fit a mold. Right. [13:56] One of the things that Trey said when I interviewed him back at Andrel, we did this, like, Andrel tour. It was so much fun. Amazing, right? Amazing tour. It was amazing. We did this interview, and I asked him, like... [14:07] I guess, what is one thing about Peter Thiel that, your biggest lesson, like what did you learn? And he was like, [14:15] that he's always right. He's always right. Peter's usually pretty right on the macro things at the end of the day. Timing does come into this stuff, and he's not always exactly right on timing, but at the end of the day, he's pretty good at... [14:26] being correct. [14:28] on [14:29] especially on macro.

[14:32] global macro things he is the best i've ever met at that he is [14:38] Yeah, he is the best at that. [14:41] Given that, he did just move down to Argentina, so what does he know that we don't know? [14:47] I don't think Peter likes socialism. Okay. [14:50] You know, I don't either. He's probably correct that politics in America is like getting even more and more and more extreme. [14:58] Right? Like, oh, [14:59] then Trump, so then AOC, so then, you know, more extreme. And so that's probably pretty scary. [15:05] Um... [15:06] Yeah, I don't. If you're talking to people like me and Max and Trey, you're going to get a lot of the same thing on that. Like, we're not into socialism. Yeah, Max had a really... Max escaped communism as a kid. He's not interested in going back to this. [15:22] Do you think that's a real threat for America? Like it'll swing like a pendulum? There it is. I think it's pretty clearly like starting, you know, has started to, right? Yeah. How do we avoid that? We'd move to Argentina or? No, I mean, that's not what I'm, that's not my strategy. I mean, you kind of fight as much as you can, but Peter is not wrong that that is a threat. [15:41] Now, how you deal with that or what you do from there, I think is... [15:46] an individual question, right? Like what's right for your family? What's right for you? But I don't think he's wrong that there's a chance that [15:55] you know, America's going in a pretty bad direction. [15:58] - Yeah, especially with the wealth tax just seeping in. - The asset seizure? - Potentially going national. I just had-- - Oh, that's definitely going national. People think that it's like, it's so funny. People like look at this thing and say, "Oh, it's a billionaire tax. That doesn't matter to me." Uh-uh. There's, first of all, even in the California one, there's provisions for it to like,

[16:13] Once all the billionaires leave, oh, well, we need to get the money somehow. OK, let's take the next lower down, the next lower down. This is going to impact the middle class way more than it's going to. [16:22] effects. [16:23] mobile billionaires. Yeah, we just had the CIO of A16Z Perennial on. [16:29] Mark and Ben's family office. [16:32] And [16:33] He was talking about how trillions potentially, allegedly, have left California already. It has, for sure. Literally, like trillions. And then now we have the SpaceX IPO coming up. Ampthropic just filed their S1 today. So many of those people are leaving before these things happen, yeah. Do you think they're going to leave the country? No, and I do think it's harder to leave the country than I think it is to leave the state. [16:58] Bye. [17:00] It is. It's harder to leave the country than it is to leave the state. [17:03] What's the preferred state? [17:04] Oh, I don't know. For me, it's Hawaii. Really? I'm not trying to avoid all... [17:08] Much to Peter's chagrin, and he makes fun of me for this all the time. I'm not trying to avoid high income tax rates. I am trying to avoid asset seizure, though. That's funny. Trey did want me to ask you, why are you so obsessed with Hawaii? I love it there. Why? Like, it's... [17:22] can be [17:24] I can sit on lanai, like laptop doing stuff overlooking the ocean for [17:29] Infinity it's my peaceful happy [17:33] It's just so peaceful there to me. Do you get claustrophobic knowing that you're on an island? I don't. [17:38] It's really far away. It's fine. You know how long it's like I went to [17:42] It's like...

[17:44] It's closer than like from here to New York. [17:47] Is it? Absolutely. Really? Absolutely. It's four, like it takes four hours and [redacted address] and like five hours the other way. [17:55] Oh, that's not bad. From here to Hawaii. [17:57] Yeah, LA it's much further. [17:59] - It's a little for them. - By an hour. - I mean, San Francisco is the closest city in the world to Honolulu. - I understand that now. I'm always like, why are people going to Hawaii? [18:06] I don't understand it. I grew up on the East Coast. We're used to like the Caribbean and it's like a two hour flight. Why do people go to Hawaii? [18:14] Now we know. It's not far. It's not far. So, like, what about Hawaii? It's like the seclusion. No, it's not even the seclusion. It is the beach. It's the weather and the beach. I don't like wearing pants. Like, I like wearing shorts. This is a common thing with Max, too. Next time you talk to Max Levchin about this. [18:34] But... [18:35] I... [18:37] I like being warm. [18:39] I love the climate there. [18:41] I love like [18:43] Yeah, I'm able to relax. [18:45] Max did have a question for that on that topic. Why do you wear shorts [18:50] almost to the exclusion of all lower body garments. [18:55] Verbatim. [18:57] um [18:59] I don't know, jeans are pretty... [19:00] restrict constrictive what's the word restricting constrictive yeah like i just i don't feel free you can't express yourself express yourself yeah there you go bummer whatever the kids are saying these days wally but yeah no i i i do like being in warm places

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[20:53] superintelligence. Visit turing.com slash S-O-U-R-C-E-R-Y. [20:59] Back to the... Okay, so I want to go through some of the cast of characters. Okay. Right? You've been exposed to all of them. You're friends with them. They're characters for maybe the outside world, and they're probably just your friends, so this is also kind of a weird question. But, okay, so we talked about Peter Thiel a bit. I want to know, like, more, like... So his investing strategy, and the strategy that you formed at Founders Fund is, like, [21:20] Heavy conviction concentrated bets. Yeah, I've listened to many of your interviews for preparation of this and you're like reserves We don't care about reserves. We're just gonna raise another fund So like how did you think about that and like what were the biggest allocation venture capital? To me is put the most money into the best companies possible at the best price possible nowhere in that is like portfolio management and reserve calculations and [21:42] ownership percentages and all that nonsense it's like just nope it's pretty easy put the most money into the best companies possible at the best price possible [21:50] Sometimes the best price possible is [21:52] more than what you want to pay. You know what? If it's a great company at the end of the day that you see is going to be one of the greatest companies of all time, that's okay. [21:58] So it's the best price possible. That's venture capital right there. All the other stuff is just nonsense. The other thing is that we realized that... [22:06] We just knew from early on, first of all, it matched our style, like having no fear on these things, but also just like [22:13] You know, [22:14] of a venture fund like 3X's over the course of like 10 to 12 years, I don't even think that that beats the S&P. I'm pretty sure it like loses to a Vanguard no load index fund. No, seriously. It's just like, you get all these people talking about like, woohoo, you know, our fund 3X'd over these 12 years. It's just like,

[22:31] So it means your investors essentially lost money because they could have easily scaled money into an S&P no-loaded index fund. [22:38] We knew that. Beating the market is hard. [22:41] Let's just be clear, beating the market is [22:43] extremely hard. There's no, you have to have some real advantage in order to do it. Venture capital [22:50] Legal inside information. [22:51] Right? There's no... you're not playing the same level of playing field as everybody else. It's not like the public markets where I want. [22:57] no this is why i don't invest in public market companies i want no [23:01] inside information about anything public. I want no [23:05] Liabilities. Liabilities on anything but private companies do you know absolutely and so [23:11] If you've got that kind of access and you can truly see something is a great company, the way to beat the market is to put a ton of money into that company. [23:21] Like put every penny that you can. [23:24] like that's the way to beat the market in venture capital everything else just ties it or loses to it [23:28] And you spread that across funds. You don't even think about like, oh, we did in this fund, we're maxed out, we'll do that. You know, there were some advantages. Now, we didn't have that advantage early on. Like, let's just be clear. If SpaceX didn't work, Founders Fund would not exist. Like, we bet our careers, essentially, on SpaceX. And I love that, which goes into why I'm doing what I'm doing now, like, is exclusively that. Right? But I love... [23:53] elite athletes like betting their career on something [23:57] Right. Truly elite, talented people like betting their career on something. That's what I love. And I think we were just really, really, really good at that.

[24:04] at Founders Fund, we didn't really [24:08] Yeah, we weren't trying to do portfolio management. We were trying to put the most money in to the best companies possible. [24:14] I think it was really funny when I talked to you on the phone the other week. You're like, I think this was maybe the day the SpaceX S1 came out. You're like, yeah, whatever. I'm not going to read that. Why am I going to read that? I don't know. I wouldn't really understand what I was reading. There's probably a lot of financial... [24:29] stuff in there. [24:31] And to me, it's just like, ooh, Rockets, cool. Elon, greatest founder in history. Great. Like, it's a different calculation for me than like, [24:38] pouring over a prospectus. There are other people who are great at that, like some of my partners at like Founders Fund are great at that. Napoleon is probably one of the best in the world at being able to like really do that and understand the company. Great, there's his edge. [24:48] It's not my edge. I don't put skill points into it. - And then when you invested into SpaceX, this was 2007, 2008? - 2008. - 2008, they had three failed rocket launches. [24:59] How did you gain that conviction? You met Elon. What was he like? I didn't really know Elon back then. Remember, I had just started at Founders Fund. I did get to sit through one meeting with him. I've since met him several times. But back then, I was like a new junior person starting at Founders Fund. But I did get to like... [25:16] Talk with the group about it and back then it was just like the most amazing thing I [25:21] It still is, right? There's still no other rocket companies that get up with that kind of [25:25] Like, didn't the... [25:26] I don't know. I don't know when it's going to be air, but like a Blue Origin thing just did not work. [25:30] Like, [25:31] it's still pretty amazing. And one of my greatest...

[25:36] startup camaraderie moments in history, [25:39] in my career was being able to like go to the Hawthorne office when we did get the first successful Falcon one. [25:45] to actually complete a [25:47] a launch it was like the most amazing camaraderie experience of my life even more than the startups that i was at or google or whatever and [25:56] Yeah, it's just like one of those things. It's like an end of one. [26:00] Historic. [26:01] thing to be part of. [26:03] What do you think the key traits are that he has that he implements within his teams? It's obviously vertical integration. There's no other person like Elon because he's the only person that truly could be the CEO and CTO of a company like SpaceX. Nobody else exists like that. It's like Levchin kind of, right, in some ways because he's that he could be a CTO and he is a great CEO, right? But it's very, very uncommon to be [26:28] the best from a [26:30] you know, novel business [26:33] understanding the execution side as well as the technical side. And [26:38] I, you know, he's just [26:40] He's and there's no there's never been anybody like that in the history of business. Are you surprised at all? [26:46] by how much progress he's making now with all of the new [26:49] launches for not just [26:51] like rocket launches, but TeraFab and- - Oh no, nothing surprises me. - Nothing surprises you? No? [26:58] I mean, it's got the best team in the world, it's got like... [27:01] When... [27:02] these things snowball right and so when you're committed and plus when you're somebody like that who's truly mission driven

[27:08] and [27:09] you know, truly driven to like [27:12] achieve all these things from a [27:14] Not from like, not even just from a, "Oh, I want to make more money." Probably the richest person in the world, right? Like that's not what he's like, from an actual, what the company is doing perspective. Yeah, you tend to hire, [27:24] really, really, really good people. [27:26] And [27:27] Yeah, no, not surprised at all with what that company is doing now. [27:30] We just did a walkthrough tour of Impulse. Oh, yeah. And I did a sit down with Eric Romo as well, but we did a walking tour through their first facility with Tom. Yeah. And not their El Segundo one, but we did a walking tour of that facility. And like towards the end, we got into some SpaceX questions. I was like, I mean, Starlink is like the topic du jour right now because they're hitting inflection point scale. And so I asked him, I was like, did you know... [27:58] when you started rolling out Starlink that it was going to be this big. [28:02] He said, absolutely, let's get as many as we can out immediately. All of us knew. A lot of us have been talking about Starlink is the truth. You need the launch business in order to do [28:13] But we all knew that Starlink was the... [28:16] the business for a long time. Market-wise, though, like, why? Because you thought old telecoms and all these other would just not. Yeah, it's an end-of-one company, and, like, launch is, like, [28:29] you know i'm bullish on launch going forward but like the applications of launch are where the [28:35] where everything is at right and like telecom and global telecom

[28:40] I mean, it's pretty huge. - So we talked a bit about Teal, we talked about Elon. Another, okay, of your portfolio that you were involved in early investments was, and I will repeat this, but I'm sure you'll correct me, it was SpaceX, [28:57] Palantir, Airbnb. - I didn't lead like SpaceX or whatever. - Yeah, but you were part of it. - Oh yeah, part of the team, yeah. - I mean, not many people can say that they were-- - No, that's true. - On those investment teams. - I just wanted to be clear. It's not like I'm trying to sit here and say, "Oh, I led SpaceX." No way. - Congratulations. - Yeah. But sorry, go on. The other big ones that-- I was a part of the team. Because the other thing is that Founders Fund, we tend to not-- [29:18] do individual credit on things. [29:21] Right? Yeah. A lot of people are involved. But yes, we can talk about it from a perspective of like, yes, was helping drive the team on some of these investments. So you were helping drive the team on SpaceX, Palantir... [29:35] Airbnb, [29:36] You were on these deal teams. You were involved in the early ones. Palantir, yes, but remember that Palantir, Peter is a co-founder of Palantir. [29:42] So that one was like... [29:44] you know, we put a lot of money into it. I think we put like 30 something percent of. You put 33% of fund investment. I think that sounds right. $75 million of a $240 million fund at a billion dollar valuation. Yeah, very good, Molly. That's something like that. Right. And so, yeah, that was pretty bold. Now, Peter was a co-founder there. [30:04] So, I think I put that one in a special bucket because... [30:08] Peter's co-founder there. [30:10] But then like, yeah, I mean, Airbnb, Stripe, Stemcentrics,

[30:13] even like things like Andurl, sure. [30:16] Affirm, obviously. [30:18] And STEM Centrix was one of your first exits? Maybe. It was one of the first bigger exits. But I don't know anything about biotech, right? That was just a bad eye because I knew how good the team was. [30:28] That's crazy. [30:30] I've never seen it. There's never been another... [30:34] CEO of a biotech company like that. Right. I think like the biggest thing that I was, I was looking at all these names and I've listened to you on, on interviews and listen to you speak. And it's like, [30:46] You're so down to earth about it. Like you're very clear that like you're not an expert in these things. You have high conviction on the founders. I know what I'm good at and I know what I'm not good at and I don't try and pretend [30:57] to be good at. [30:58] Most thanks. [30:59] I don't feel the need to like [31:01] do the whole vc oh i know about everything [31:05] Nonsense. So what are you looking for in these founders? Like what are the main... What was I looking for? I mean, I'm not doing pitch meetings anymore. [31:12] I mean, I was looking for, it's hard to put into words. Like I think we had a, [31:16] One time I had an author come into Founders Fund to try and help us put into words what these found what what is the Founders Fund founder? [31:23] And we never could figure out the proper words for it, right? Like it was just always a... [31:29] But we all kind of, the one thing about us is like, we all approach these things from slightly different perspectives, but we could all... [31:35] generally agree on [31:37] Whoa. [31:38] this person is actually really good. [31:41] Right and I think that's what the other thing apart that made founder son work is like all these contrarian people with a

[31:47] no cohesion around the type of business right other than the monopoly thesis and all that but [31:53] where we all did come together was [31:57] we were all a lot on somewhat the same page with oh this is an actual a plus founder [32:03] Not just like an A- founder, but an actual A- founder. [32:07] of which I think there's very few. Does that evolve, like... [32:10] Do you... [32:12] Do you get them at maturity or do you think that they have potential? Like what is the... Um, you probably see the potential, but like to me, my style was a little bit later. [32:21] Like, I, you know, you probably can see that somebody is really good. [32:25] you know at the very start but i need to see that paired with execution just because i don't know how to do execution and so i i can like take it uh i can i can take the whole like oh this person's probably a plus and maybe make an investment but from an execution perspective i need to kind of see the execution because i don't know anything about execution this goes back to like the strategy versus tactics thing it's right like i couldn't actually never run a company right [32:50] Um, [32:51] It's one of the reasons I wanted to retire from venture capital. [32:54] Like when I would talk to these founders, I was always pretty good at, [32:57] corporate strategy and i was really good at figuring out if the person was a plus [33:01] But there is always some sense of imposter syndrome, right? [33:03] Right? Like I've never founded a company. [33:06] I don't, I have no idea. I couldn't, I don't try and claim that I could run a company, right? And so you'd always find people who could in really, really, really good ways. Why when you run into like a Max Levchin, you're like, oh, this person can run a company. You're like, great, right? Because I could never do it. But on the thing that I'm doing now, right, like,

[33:22] no, there's no imposter syndrome, right? And so that I can do. [33:25] Yeah, I wanted to ask about that. So of the individuals I... [33:30] I reached out to. Scott Nolan was one of them. And he... [33:34] he was curious how you're applying that framework to investing in funds into fund investors specifically like these like [33:41] emerging or whatever you want to call it. Yeah. Um, same thing. [33:45] It's the same thing, but without the imposter syndrome. When I, like, I'll know in the first five minutes if I don't think somebody is an A-plus GP. And the work is, I'll meet with somebody and be like, oh... [33:55] Like what I'm actually looking for is, hey, [33:58] Is there some chance this person could have beaten me in my prime? [34:02] Mm. [34:03] Right? As a game, like playing their game. Their game is not going to be the same as mine. You're not going to beat me at my game. But playing their game, could they beat me? [34:11] in my prime, [34:12] If the answer is [34:13] Maybe. [34:15] Then I want to spend more time with them and I want to work with them. And so that's what I'm doing now. I'm spending a whole bunch of time with these GPs. I'm thinking like, [34:23] I'll know immediately if they definitely are not. [34:28] But like, it'll take spending a bunch of time with them to think, oh, this person actually could have beaten me. Like we would have hired this person at Founders Fund if there was, but they're not hireable, right? And so that's who I'm looking for now. And it's the same motion as when I was dealing with Founders Pitching, other than there's no imposter syndrome. So it can be like very much no holds barred for minute one. There's no, it doesn't have to be like a sense of politeness. And I don't like small talk and I don't like preamble. Like I'm very much into...

[34:58] Okay, let's get to the meat. So I like getting to the meat like real quick with these GPs. [35:03] and like challenge them on this kind of stuff, right? And, [35:08] It's harder to do that with founders, 'cause you always need to be much more respectful, and genuinely, because, [35:14] I had never done it. [35:15] So who am I to like just... [35:17] whatever they're doing from immediately, right? [35:19] This I can rip immediately. [35:22] With these, like, I guess, like, what are the main themes that you're seeing out of this new cohort of GPs and funds? [35:29] What do you mean? Like in terms of what they're investing in? I don't know. I mean like... No, like their style. I mean, I think... Oh, all different. I think like though for [35:37] for a fact, a lot of people are trying to rip off the [35:41] the Founders Fund concentration strategy. Everybody all of a sudden, like, let's go after vertical integration. Let's go after concentration bets. I'm very good at spotting when something is somebody's natural strength versus when they're trying to say things they think that I want to hear. [35:55] Like you have to I think that is one of the things that you have to get really good at it's like okay [36:02] It's the bullshit meter, right? Like, is somebody saying something because you can tell they think you want to hear it, right? Or is somebody truly being themselves? I love when people are truly themselves. [36:13] And when I can see that their natural self [36:17] can be dominant [36:19] Like that's what I love, right? Just talk naturally because you don't know what I'm looking for. Like I'm open to [36:24] any strategy under the sun. [36:26] um i'm open to somebody being the best in the world that whatever it is i just have to be convinced that they're like

[36:31] the best at their strategy. [36:34] Who do you think the most naturally authentic people are? [36:36] Oh, I don't know. We've talked about some of them like authentic people. I mean, I think I'm fortunate to be around a lot of authentic people. So one of the things I always say, though, is like, [36:44] Cyan Bannister is one of the most authentic people. Oh my gosh. One of the most pure authentic people like in the world. She is just her. She's one of my best friends. And her husband Scott, right? Like those are two extremely authentic. They are who they are. [36:59] You know, people. [37:01] As one example, but I know a lot of. That's a really, I literally, that was the top person that I thought of. Really? Yeah. Cyan was the first person. [37:10] That came to my mind. I spent a really good amount of time with her and the Long Journey Ventures team. Shout out to Long Journey. Shout out. They're great. Last fall and we just bonded so well. We think very similarly about things like we were going through this exercise. Like we were doing lots of like thought experiments, like like kind of like opening your mind and then reflecting and all this kind of like cool stuff. [37:33] down-to-earth conceptual frameworks and i was like i travel so much i don't want to own anything i just wish like i had like a cloud of things i could just pop into any location i love that be there um now with uber eats you can do that you can literally order clothes on uber eats it's great this is not a plug i swear but um so we bonded over that but like i've never i she is one of the most [37:56] successful female investors and for me being in a male-dominated industry there's really like few of them but she is like such a purely authentic person and then she's extremely talented and such a good investor yes it's great agreed agreed um she's phenomenal when i spend time uh and it's

[38:19] fortune, like, or the, I guess, like the opportunity to spend time with these individuals, like, [38:25] Over the last year or so, doing these interviews, I spent time with her. I did the Andrel tour. Palmer Luckey, you cannot replicate that guy. He was literally going to be the other person that I would have said. Really? Like, talk about somebody who's like, [38:38] Just... [38:40] caricature portrayed by the rest of the media as like totally not like Palmer Luckey is one of the most like [38:47] honest, like, [38:48] real people that there is. And like from an insane talent, like, [38:55] Palmer though, so Palmer is one of the most talented, from a visionary, crazy product idea that could actually work. Like, Oculus was one of the very first companies, so I was the first investor in Oculus. [39:09] Oculus was a company that I invested in, not just on the street. I mean, obviously Brendan Palmer, great, but like, [39:14] I was like try the actual product and I'm not a product person but I tried the actual product and was like [39:19] "Oh, I'm blown away by this." So I had to invest just, and I never do that from a product perspective, I'm much more of a, [39:26] individual person, but like, [39:28] To have that kind of thing, he's such an honest person. And he is also, Palmer also knows what he is really good at and what he needs to supplement. Right? Like, so I talk about the, there's no other founder in history like Elon. Right? But as one person who could do it all. The Andurl founding team. [39:46] are all so complimentary to each other and different, but respect each other so much and are good in different ways that not any one of them, not any one of the four of them could have like,

[39:57] pulled this off. But I do think that the cohesive founding team is better [40:02] than Elon. [40:03] Not one person, but the team is. And Palmer is such a huge part of that. And he's just like a genuine guy. He was a, besides Cyan, he was like the next person I thought of to say in the answer to your question. A hundred percent. It's like, also, you could throw anything at him. He has a reference for it. Sure. I was like, oh, this will be a funny question. Like, what would War on the Moon look like? He will have studied that. He was like, well, I read that in a book. It's called blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, oh, shit. That's an easy one for him because he definitely would have studied that one. But like, yes. That's an easy one. [40:33] He's like truly authentic and very cool. Alex Karp is definitely another one. Yeah, there's a lot of actual authentic people in this business. There's, as we were... [40:42] talking about off camera, there's a lot that are not. [40:45] But there really are, and you will never be able to tell from... [40:51] how [40:52] tech media or mainstream media characterize people who genuinely is, you'd think, "Oh, that's a villain!" or whatever, like just by reading this, you know, this kind of nonsense. [41:02] but there genuinely are amazing, awesome, [41:05] talented, [41:07] Really true to themselves like genuine real people like you use the term down-to-earth I don't know about if I'd use that same term, but I like to use the term I [41:15] Genuine like genuinely them. They're not trying to be somebody else. They're not trying to like [41:21] fit apart, right? They're just being them. [41:24] And I love that. And I do actually...

[41:28] Yeah, and I'm attracted to when I meet that in a new GP, I'm attracted to that. Somebody who is just being them, not trying to play the game. [41:38] as a master of games or a lover of games. [41:43] Why do people play the posturing game? [41:45] when it's so obvious to everybody who's on the inside. I don't think it's all... because who cares about the people on the inside? [41:51] That's not who you're trying to like... [41:53] Sometimes you're trying to win over LPs. Maybe you need to do the posturing for LPs. I don't, but that could be one reason to do it. One reason is you're building your career. I don't know, it's not the game that I would have played, but I don't say there's no reason [42:09] Uh... [42:11] to do it. [42:12] And also because you're, you're, you're, [42:14] your audience or your, your, [42:16] customers, not other VCs. So really, who cares what other VCs think of you? Today's episode is sponsored by VCX by Fundrise, the public ticker for private tech, allowing investors of all sizes to invest in venture capital. [42:30] Learn more at GetVCX.com.

[43:00] index around your thesis. What really stands out is how clearly it explains why each stock is included. And before you invest, you can even backtest your idea against the S&P 500. So you're making decisions with real context, not just guessing. And beyond generated assets, Public lets you invest in stocks, bonds, options, crypto, all in one place. They'll even give you an uncapped 1% match when you transfer your investments over from another platform. If you want to build a portfolio that actually reflects your thesis, visit public.com slash sorcery. [43:30] Paid for by public investing. Full disclosures in the description. [43:34] Enterprise AI runs on Merge, the AI infra platform for integrations, agent tooling, and model orchestration, so your teams ship product, not plumbing. [43:43] Mistral, Dropbox, and Drada already trust merge and production. [43:47] start building at merge.dev. [43:50] Founders scale faster on Deal. Set up payroll for any country in minutes, hire anyone anywhere, get visas handled fast, and get back to building. Visit deal.com slash sorcery. That's D-E-E-L dot com slash sorcery. [44:05] to bring it back to reality. - Yep. [44:07] We had some really fun conversations before we started because we're in this, like, I mean, you have some beautiful guitars back there. Oh, yeah. Those are prized possessions. [44:17] My wife's karaoke guitars. Really? When my wife and kids like to... [44:21] We do karaoke in this room all the time. We love karaoke as a family and [44:25] Bizarre karaoke guitars. They look like they've seen some... See some better days? No, I think they've seen some great days and some jam sessions. Oh yeah, if those guitars could talk. Yeah.

[44:34] But you do have some empty cases and we were talking about [44:38] why you're so interested in collecting physical things, like human relic. I am. [44:42] So what is the... I'm very bullish on end of one human cultural iconic artifacts. Like as a class... [44:52] I've never been a big art person. Like, Trey is a big art person. Like, just paintings and, you know, all that kind of stuff. I've never been really into that, but what I am into is functional art. [45:02] And like, [45:03] art in the form of like [45:05] artifacts right i love that stuff and so [45:09] you know, music memorabilia is a [45:12] you know, category that I'm extremely interested in, as long as these are truly N of one, [45:17] human cultural iconic artifacts and i think that that's really growingly important in a world that's dominated by machines in so many ways like i think the the true human like iconic things [45:29] are just going to be more and more valuable from not just from a monetary perspective but from a [45:34] mindshare perspective from like a [45:37] uh you know from an emotional uh perspective right like i don't really care if like the algorithm of some nft made this one thing algorithmically rare like i don't care about that but do i love [45:49] a Jerry Garcia guitar that he played for like 10 years. [45:53] Hell yeah. [45:54] Right? Like do I love things that people could recognize? [45:58] like from minute one, [46:00] of seeing them that are true end of one artifacts, yeah. [46:04] I love that kind of stuff. And so I, you know, I do have some pieces that will

[46:09] that will be going in here. [46:10] But yeah. [46:11] How did you, like, how did this collection start? Was there one particular piece that you saw? Yeah, we started with a [46:18] We do have some kind of movie memorabilia, which I'm very bullish on also because it's still iconic human. [46:24] you know stuff and you don't want to start a band i do not want to start a band but i hope my kids are in one if they want to right like [46:31] You know, I really like this whole [46:35] Going to a world where [46:37] Businesses kind of AI dominated. The reason I built this music studio was I don't care if a machine can make music better than me. Who cares? I love doing it. [46:48] Right. And so I like humans figuring out and using this next, you know, [46:54] using whatever comes next as a way to figure out like well how can [46:57] we'd be truly happy. And how do we focus on the things that make us [47:01] truly happy and truly who we are. And so like, for instance, like if my kids are super into music, which they might be right. And they want to join a, start a band. Hell yeah. Right. If they want to, you know, any, I'm, I'm, I'm as, [47:14] bullish on them being involved in anything creative arts [47:19] as I am like academics, right? [47:22] like, [47:22] I would almost say that like having an awesome music department or an awesome art department is even more important than having an awesome math program right now. [47:31] It's really cool. So I went to college for studio art. Yeah. And like I transitioned to business and all that kind of stuff. So I got it in my jeans. Yeah. But...

[47:41] There was like a really interesting moment in time. [47:44] I think it was when Studio Ghibli launched on ChatGPT and there was this like existential crisis of, "Oh, artists are over." Like, this is over. I think we did a segment on this. I was on Pirate Wires at the time and like, [47:55] it was a podcast and we did a segment on this and I was like, guys, like I went to art school, like [47:59] You can't stop artists. Yeah. Artists are always going to create. It's like in their blood. It is what wakes them up every day. Yes. I can get lost in a drawing for literally eight hours and not want to eat. And that is totally irreplaceable for by a machine. Yeah. Like what you get out of that, what you get out of doing your art, what you get out of doing something that you truly love. [48:20] That is... [48:22] Crazy theories, I know, but that is going to be what defines us. Like, what we get, like, more than like, oh, well, [48:28] I need to do this pie chart, because no, machines can be able to do that better than you. But like, if you're getting that kind of emotional reaction from doing your art, [48:36] - Hi. [48:38] who's going to replace that? I'm a tech optimist. Yeah. And so like I've actually made a lot of money betting against the end of the world. Really? Some pretty famous people. Yeah. Because it's like, [48:48] The way that we might see it, it's just like, [48:49] I'm going to be an optimist because in the... [48:52] Who cares about the other side of that bet? [48:54] Right? Like in the world where it's like, oh, we're all dead or zombie apocalypse world. Ah, who cares if I lost, you know, a bet on that regard, right? Like I'm much more of a [49:03] a tech optimist and an optimist that like will figure it out. And so from a tech optimist perspective, like, yeah, I think that we'll eventually

[49:11] eventually, I have no idea when this will be, like have some basic [49:16] needs met and people can try and focus on [49:19] what they actually love. [49:20] That's amazing. Well, to wrap it up, [49:24] What are you most looking forward to in the next 12 months? Well, [49:27] I'm looking forward to a few things. [49:31] My daughter's starting kindergarten. Aww. I'm sure I'll get teary for that. Um... [49:36] spending more time in Hawaii. Yeah. And this music studio actually opening up. It like, [49:42] You know this this filming this podcast in here. This is the first time other people have been in here but my intention is [49:50] to have... [49:52] bands and artists that are doing something that I [49:55] love, get to come in and they get to use the studio for free. [49:59] I'll even create a label for them and they get to own all the IP and I'll pay all the money to have them distribute their stuff. And they get to use everything for free and own all of it because I don't care about making money off of this. I get to be a fly on the wall. [50:10] Right. So that's how I drive my happiness here. Right. From this is like, I love being just like a part of the creative process. Right. And so I look forward to putting that into reality. It's like having some band or artists can like do something awesome here where the win win for them is they don't have to pay a cent for it. I don't have to take any sort of. [50:30] ownership of their IP of their stuff at all they get to own it all and [50:34] but I get to be a fly on the wall. [50:35] So I'm looking forward to that also. [50:37] That's amazing. Well, that's a great place to end. Thanks. Thank you so much, Brian. All right. Thanks, Molly. Appreciate it.

[50:43] Hey, it's Molly. If you enjoy our interviews, check out our newsletter, Sorcery.vc, where we deliver a once a week top deals and tech headlines email and also go deeper on our podcast interviews. Subscribe to Sorcery today. And don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on YouTube, Spotify, Apple or wherever you listen. Link in description to sign up.